How the Wii was engineered (or "born")
Ars Technica explores lower-than-expected GameCube sales in the wake of Wii's birth as Nintendo's fifth generation home console. The piece discusses runaway costs of video game development, Wii's admittedly risky business, the engineering of the game box, and Nintendo's overall "less is more" approach to console design this go around. From the article: "'More glitz' is always welcome in any new generation, but at some point one runs into laws of diminishing returns. [One Nintendo engineer] wondered if advances in technology could be used in a different way. The Wii was designed to take processor technology improvements and use them to make the unit run with less heat, by making the chips smaller. This enabled features that other consoles couldn't duplicate, such as the ability to leave the console powered on all the time [read: WiiConnect24]."
The article suggests that "always on" technology and internet connectivity via WiiConnect24 were just as important in the Wii planning process as motion-controls. An idea is one thing (and don't get us wrong, WiiConnect24 sounds intriguing), but execution is another.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
John @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:05PM
Oh I have an idea. An online structure with parental controls instead of a friend code system ;)
They spend years on developing the Wii and they still can't do that? Itd be so simple :(
I know my friends by their names, not their 16 digit identity. It's been such a hassle adding people to my DS friend's list, everygame has different codes.
Worst of all, my DS was subject to a defect in it's online structure that would no show any of my contacts as online even when they were, but they could see me. The whole friend code thing really ruined my experiance, I sincerly hope that little glitch doesn't happen with the Wii.
I'm unsure as to wether they fixed it yet or not, but the NOAs over on Nsider said they were working on it- 4 months ago.
I'll give it the benifit of the doubt.
In all honesty, other than Brawl, I'm not really looking forward to any other Wifi Game. I'll take Zelda over anything else the Wii is offering up. Gosh Darn, I reaaallly want it right now.
I've already planned my next year out.
Games to buy:
360: Gears of war, army of two, Elders scrolls 5, Halo 3, Assasins Creed
Wii: Zelda, Brawl, Mario Galaxy
DS: NSMB, havent got it yet :(, Mario Kart, Zelda
PSP: Vice City Stories
Looks like a healthy line-up. Right now I'm really interested in seeing how Assasin's Creed turns out like.
Jay @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:07PM
The low power usage is important to me too. I haven't used a proper desktop PC in years, the study computer using up so many plug sockets where I'm here using my iMac (1 plug), extra monitor (1 more) and amp (1 more). The fact the Wii is quiet and low power is just a nice touch in my books. I remember leaving my Cube on overnight just to get Mewtwo in Smash Bros Melee and that was a bloody nightmare, so conscious of the hum.
I like things quiet :)
Probot @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:19PM
This is actually just a summary and comment on the 1st "Iwata Asks" section of Wii.com.
http://wii.nintendo.com/iwata_asks_vol1_p1.html
The latest volume (3) is where the rumor about the friend code system came from, though if you actually read it, there's no mention of friend codes.
"This enabled features that other consoles couldn't duplicate, such as the ability to leave the console powered on all the time [read: WiiConnect24]."
Actually, if you read the entire interview, WiiConnect24 is hardly mentioned. That's not the central reason for having the system on all the time. That's more of a feature they figured they could add since the system is on 24 hours a day. The focus was to have a system that would always be on so it could easily be used at any time.
All in all, the interviews are an interesting look into how certain decisions were made, especially about the controllers. Since Xbox 360 Uncloaked covered that console, I'd be interested in seeing interviews like this for the PS3.
Blizz419 @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:21PM
John
as far as i know there hasnt been any info on a elder scrolls 5 being released next year
John @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:22PM
It did kinda feel like WiiConnect24 was a last minute idea, in my oppinion.
Its a good idea, but what it presents is lacking of any concrete or interesting features.
I mean, I don't mind turning on the console and starting downloads, 360 is fine, I don't have to have it come when the consoles off, though I like the convienience. I hope they put it to good use.
Sniper @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:29PM
I am guessing the Wii was born from the comment "What are we going to do with all these gamecube parts"
Miniboss @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:37PM
"I am guessing the Wii was born from the comment "What are we going to do with all these gamecube parts""
Haha! ...yeah, it's probably true.
Infil @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:38PM
To people who think that the console isn't worth the price it is, or that it's all old GC parts or old technology, read the link Probot gave (all 3 parts on the hardware of the Wii). Since you're not electrical engineers, you obviously have no idea how much advanced tech really did go into the Wii. Read it if you have an open mind.
As for WiiConnect24, it sounds quite interesting. The internet is always on; it used to be fun to check your mail every morning and see who sent you new mail. A console that is "always on" in this sense is a very unique idea. While not much worthwhile (aside from some channel updates) will take place at launch, look for this service to be more expanded in the next year or two. You know, when what's happening on a console is a lot more indicative of what the console can really do.
I think Nintendo will come up with some really cool ideas over the next year.
chudgoo @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:10PM
Apple / Nintendo comparisons....why not...
WiiConnect24 = Mac OSX's Widgets
Little useful apps that load quickly and give you what you want.
(would still LOVE to see a 'god-hand' (iow 'Black and White's gesture system) type interface for Google Earth/Keyhole on the Wii)
Low power (consumption!) chips = Motorola/IBM : G3/G4 processors.
The importance of this can not be stated enough. Low power chips in consoles today mean easier (and better) integration into portable systems in the future.
(as apple realized when the G5 wouldn't/couldn't be coaxed into a laptop formfactor)
...The point of diminished returns has come in the form of Cell. While I desperately want to play MGS4 I can and will wait for the obligatory port to xb360. The PS3 is simply trying to sell me too many things I don't want or need. The Wii gives me a worthy refresh on what I already like AND improves the components involved. This is VERY Apple-like and I think it will serve them (and us) well.
aZn_1080p @ Oct 3rd 2006 12:00AM
This article is laughable, seriously. To try and pass off lame-o features like 'always on' as soem sort of big next gen feature is ridiculous, as is the idea that the Ninty's 'engineers' wanted to use the 'powerful cpus' in different ways, ie to save power. Here's a much more likely version of how the conversation went down:
Ninty Exec 1: AH SHIT, just saw the lastest numbers guys Gamecube sales are in the toilet!! I mean Sony is just *humiliating* us sales wise.
Ninty Exec 2: Crap. You know what that means, we're gonna be stuck with a whole load of unused gamecube CPUs...
Ninty Exec 3: Hey, I have an idea so crazy it just might work! Let's see if we can't overclock those cpus a bit, get ATI to throw together a cheap graphics chip, and re-release them as a new 'next generation' system.
Ninty Exec 2: Are bleeding nuts mate? Do you really thing anyone is going to re-buy essentially the same console?
Ninty Exec 1: You have to be kidding me... it will work just fine. We'll get the boys in marketing to think up a few new gimmicks, maybe something we've already done and can re-brand on the cheap, like the powerglove (guffaws), and a few new buzzwords for 'features' we'll invent... like.. oh, I don't know, something stupid like how it can be left on forever (loud laughter), or how you can make a custom stick figure version of the player and use it in mini games.
Ninty Exec 2: I still don't think they'll buy it... come on that would be the biggest scam anyone ever pulled in the history of videogames..
Ninty Exec 3: Look mate, you know as well as I do that if we put Zelda and Mario on this thing, and throw Miyamoto up on stage to explain how its all his idea, how it will "revolutionize gaming" (more guffaws), our fans will eat it up!
Ninty Exec 2: Well I guess you're right... still, don't you think its kind of... er... WRONG, to mislead our customers like that?
Ninty Exec 1: HA! Nothing wrong about it, our fans are fans of Nintendo the company, they want us to do well so they can keep living in the Mario/Zelda/Princess toadstoll fantasyland they have been living in since they were kids. Anything that lets them keep living that lie and refusing to grow up and face reality will be welcomed with open arms. We've got them by the short and curlies here, so lets not spoil a good thing.
Blizz419 @ Oct 3rd 2006 12:19AM
@ aZn_1080p
first off Wii's CPU is not the same as gamecubes it has a different architecture, also note that gamecube did fairly well it came in 2nd going by worldwide sales and also made more profit than its competitors so even though it didnt sell as well as PS2 it did make more money than PS2 did.
Mabui @ Oct 3rd 2006 12:27AM
To me, thats exactly where I want to see technology go at this point. I mean, look at cell phones, they keep releasing newer more multifunction cell phones right along side new batteries so that you never have a cell phone that you can carry around for more than a week without needing to recharge.
Everyone keeps thinking of this "Bleeding Edge"technology and not thinking about the risks in releasing them to the common public. Much like anyone who ever spends a great deal of money on their PC must know that if you buy the newest stuff, you sometimes have to suffer through the issues no one has seen yet.
Although I think they could have gone a bit more powerful then they did, I do like the idea that you can leave it on all day if need be without it overheating, or that it can drop down to minium power and still be downloading stuff for you during the best times to download anyway.. At night when you're asleep.
Jonn @ Oct 3rd 2006 12:37AM
Ah, Azn. There you are. I was wondering what happened to your witty and insightful brand of commentary.
BPM? @ Oct 3rd 2006 12:46AM
Actually, Blizz, Broadway and Hollywood (CPU and GPU for Wii) ARE the same architectures as Gekko and Flipper (CPU and GPU for GCN). But they're more powerful (NOT overclocked!) and run with less power consumption.
Which is one of the good things (for developers) about Wii. Those who are familiar with GameCube's architecture will have little problem with programming for Wii, and can push the system farther than GameCube.
Ben Hobbs @ Oct 3rd 2006 12:47AM
Huh!
I leave my Xbox360 on all the time and have never had a problem, I also happen to live in Phuket, Thailand with an average temperature of 37 degrees celcius, the xbox is in a room with no air-con.
Blizz419 @ Oct 3rd 2006 1:01AM
BPMΩ
as i understood it is similer architecture not identical i'll have to look into it, either way fact is its not left over gamecube CPU's and GPU's
epobirs @ Oct 3rd 2006 2:43AM
I find it amusing that the head guy at Ars Technica ran an article a while stating his intense disbelief that the Wii could possibly a die shrink of the GameCube chipset with more onboard RAM. Yet all indication still point to exactly that.
The linked article on the Nintendo site also does nothing to cause one to think otherwise. I've never in 25 years of watching semiconductor products seen a product so closely related to an existing product get this close to launch without any of the new chip level features be disclosed, by the vendor's intent or otherwise. If there is anything notable in this chipset beyond a speed and RAM bump, it cannot be cause for excitement among developers. It would long since have been wodely discussed if it were a major asset as opposed to to something minor like a cache redesign or microcode tweaking.
These are definitely new parts in the sense that they are produced on a 90nm process that didn't exist when the GameCube launched. But are they anything new from a developer's perspective? It doesn't appear so.
Kassad @ Oct 3rd 2006 5:27AM
The wiiconnect24 to me doesn't seem nothing new, a PC could be always connected, a console could always connected, you just have to be away of the power button. I have a trafic limit, and i would not like to have in the morning a demo of a game that i dont want, because the unwanted download will be decreased to my trafic limit.
Burnt Meatloaf @ Oct 3rd 2006 6:33AM
I find leaving the system on 24 hours a day to be a major waste of power. How long does it take to download stuff? My broadband connection could fill up all the Wii's internal storage in a half hour, and I don't see a narrowband adapter anywhere for all those poor people stuck without cable modems. Wouldn't WiiConnect24 be perfect for people without broadband? It would make more sense to make a tiny second CPU built into the southbride to handle online activity when a game is not running and just turn off the main CPU, or just half-clock the CPU. Throttling isn't a new concept. PowerPC, unlike other embeddable CPU architectures, wasn't designed with robust power managmement in mind.
Set-top boxes and recievers are left on 24 hours a day, and generate a fair amount of heat. Does anybody complain about them? What about all this that Wii is a game machine first and foremost? Why is it acceptable that a system should sacrifice its primary function so it can be left on all the time to download weather updates? What's wrong with downloading updates WHILE you're playing? Hell, does this thing even have a real OS that can multitask that way, or is it just more of the same?
I also find it amusing that the article mentions the law of diminishing returns. That's true in the case of the 360 and PS3, but there is also the minimum threshold, so you can't just go in the opposite direction, either. If a budget $30 GPU on a PC can to 1024x768 graphics quite well, there's no excuse for SDTV. Also, would you pay $200 for a video card you know is worth $100? Oh, but it's affordable, so that means any level of technology is acceptable. If Wii was half as powerful as the 360, I would be much more impressed. No wonder Nintendo isn't just trying to take the focus away from the specs, but is actually going out of their way to prevent people from knowing what they are. Casual users are so called because they have no experience. Hell, to these people, Playstation probably still looks good.
Fancy controller or not, a game system is judged by the entire package. I think a lot of people are well aware that a glossy box and "unique" controller are not enough to justify the severe cost of the system for what it offers (not just performance, but features as well). The Wii can't do half of the things the other systems can. The reason people keep defending it is because it looks cool, and they just want games that will not be made for Gamecube, even if the last-gen system is perfectly capable of running them.
I think it would have been trivial to make the sytem 6-8 times more powerful without adding too much to the system cost. The only problem would be maintaining backwards compatibility. Making the system more powerful would require a major change in architecture, and that means actually building a "real" Gamecube into one of the chips would be necessary. Well, screw that, because that's waste. Everyone knows having an extra CPU around is worthless! Might as well just tune up a Gamecube, and carry over many of its shortcomings.
Wait... isn't that how the DS works? Doesn't it have both ARM7 and ARM9 CPUs? Why would this bakcwards-compatibility practice be acceptable for a hand-held system, but not a full console? Given the cost and size of extra components for an embeded-class architecture, you'd think the situation would be reversed, here! Here's an idea: that Gamecube CPU (built into the southbridge) could run the OS and online activity while the main CPU is off. That would be a very nice, scalable, power-efficient design.
People who don't see the problem here don't know anything about modern CPU or GPU architecture. You either utilize as much as you can or disable what you don't need. Making a low-spec system to save power is rediculous. They're doing it to make more money. That's it. If you want power efficiency, turn off your satellite receiver when your TV is off.
I don't see Wii having a six year lifespan, as is usually the case with home consoles. Maybe Nintendo plans to release a new system every 3 years or so, tuning up as they go. I bet that will make the $250 seem all that much more appealing, if you have to pay another $250 in just a few years to keep playing new games. A ten year lifespan on the PS3 is pushing it, but I don't see Wii lasting more than three years without a major overhaul.
Eh, people have already made up their minds. Pointing out the obvious has no affect. I just hope that if Nintendo makes billions on this console (regardless of sales) it doesn't become a trend and everybody tries to sell crap, recycled hardware at rediculous prices because it's got one "unique" propety, and that strategy worked for Nintendo. Everything always has to be pretty and trendy.
And, no, a motion sensor is not as good a concept as a stylus. The stylus was adopted very quickly for PDAs, and I've been playing games with my Wacom tablet years before the DS came out. Motion sensors started showing up back in the 80's when Virtual Reality was supposed to be the next big thing. They never lasted. A stylus has a fixed point of reference and no dead zone. Motion sensors have a lot of functionality flaws that make them inappropriate to replace (not compliment) analog sticks. Gee, if the Wiimote is so great and versitile, why do you have to buy the VC controller, along with all the other accesories that are included by default with other consoles? People will hopefully realize this in the long run. But by then, Nintendo may introduce yet another controller, probably still without a real power pack, and all will be forgiven by the faithful. I wonder what would've happened if Sony had intruduced this controller. Probably the end of the world.
I think Wii spells bad news for the industry. There's no excuse for this lack of technology at this price, and Nintendo doesn't have a monopoly on "fun."
Lou D @ Oct 3rd 2006 7:58AM
As a Nintendo fan, I'm impressed with the intellectual negative commments on here. Some very good points. However, in the end, Nintendo is a business and they have to make money. That pretty much sums up the "why" of it all.
While I can easily see Nintendo putting out a "hi-def" console in 4 years, but that wouldn't be the first time a console manufacturer jumped the gun (I'm looking at you Microsoft, who could have easily launched this year with an HD-DVD drive built-in)...
In the end, Wii does have more features than the GC:
-front loading drive that accepts 2 different sizes
-atleast 1.5x clock speed (I still believe 2x)
-90nm SOI chip (same as CELL)
-better math unit (physics like processing displayed in handling controller input and games like SMG)
-gpu does produce more polygons
-textures seem to be larger
-bloom lighting
-games displaysing hardware shaders
-secondary RAM upgraded to 64MB and no longer slow ARAM
-built-in 802.11g wi-fi
-built-in bluetooth
also, people can complain about paying $60 for the controller with the nunchuk, but MS's controller is $50 and doesn't offer accelerometers or direct pointing capabilities
In Wii Sports(except for boxing), no game requires the nunchuck, nor does Wii Play or WarioWare, Exite Truck, Tony Hawk Downhill Jam, Sonic and maybe a few others. No NES Virtual Console game will require the Nunchuk or Classic Controller add-on.
In games such as WarioWare and some of the Wii Sports games, you pass the Wii-mote between players when it's their turn, so only 1 controller is necessary.
Oh did I mention that Opera is free until June? And that $250 price includes WiiSports?
The real problem with the price is developers leaking mis-information about it going for as cheap as $99, not the actual price itself.
JBGUY2K @ Oct 3rd 2006 8:06AM
Tell me, Burnt, did you actually bother reading the article? Or did you just decide to just read the little clipping that the OP decided to give us?
This WiiConnect24 is basically a near-standby mode that allows the console to operate some basic functionality. It's not like the Wii is going to be using the CPU full power 24/7, that would just be retarded, and yes, a complete waste of electricity.
What Nintendo is actually trying to do is give you twice as much power as the gamecube could do, only with the same amount of usage on electricity. Meanwhile, the PS3 and X360 are using even more power(almost twice) than their predecessors just to deliver these awesome graphics. The wii will actually use 1/3 to 1/4 less electricity than what the X360 or the PS3 will use while still delivering power. After all, graphics don't always make the game. I mean, look at Rez, it was freakin rendered in wireframe, and it was basic as hell, but that game had to be one of the greatest games I've ever played!
Oh, yes, I also realize that Gamecube didn't sell that well, that's mostly due to lack of third party support. However, Capcom did make some of its greatest hits games on the gamecube first (Viewtiful Joe, Killer 7, Resident Evil 4) and they all ran way better than they ever did on the PS2 (look at RE4, that looked like crap compared to the "Original" Gamecube version, even worse, the PS2's cut-scenes were pre-rendered!)
Gamecube had power to deliver, but nobody wanted to use it. However, the Wii seems to have a strong third party support this run, so we'll see how it turns out. Remember, it's not the power that makes a system, it's the games!
TRUTH @ Oct 3rd 2006 8:28AM
Graphics and gameplay go hand in hand. There has to be balance between them to make a great game! So stop saying graphics don't matter. Some of us are bored with simple textures and enviroments. Thats why I have a real next gen system. Using that controller might be fun at first but after awile you will wish the 360 or PS3 had the same motion sensing technology so you can have next gen graphics along with next gen gameplay. Nintendo went half ass this gen.
TRUTH @ Oct 3rd 2006 8:32AM
its early I had to fix it...
Graphics and gameplay go hand in hand. There has to be balance between them to make a great game! So stop saying graphics don't matter. Some of us are bored with simple textures and enviroments. Thats why I have a real next gen system. Playing on the wii might be fun at first but after awile you will wish it had the same graphics as the 360 or PS3. Now if the 360 or PS3 had the same motion sensing controller you would have next gen graphics along with next gen gameplay. Nintendo went half ass this gen.
Lou D @ Oct 3rd 2006 9:32AM
@TRUTH
By your own argument you could say both MS and Sony went half-assed by not offering new gameplay.
Yes, they can offer a better controller in the future, or use 50% of their processing power to try to use the camera to figure out gestures, but either will require an "add-on" so not every developer will use it.
I was playing Madden '05 on my GC in widescreen 480p on my 50" DLP TV and honestly, it looked real good. With more polygons and better textures and shading, the Wii is GOOD ENOUGH for me in the graphics department. Here's the kicker, my girlfriend likes football, but she can't react to the kicking meter fast enough. The new Madden fixes alot of these "complicated" gameplay issues. Gestures are better suited to her and more natural. In the end, she'll have more fun playing the Wii version than the 360 or PS3 version of a game like Madden which is way too complicated for the average consumer. That's where Wii wins.
Having to memorize what button does what out of 17 buttons and 2 sticks for every individual game IS too complicated for casual gamers... Eventually, casual gamers may become "hardcore" but if things are too complicated initially, they are turned off permanently. "Hardcore" gamers all started with simpler systems. These gamers weren't "hardcore" from day 1. They became "hardcore" over time.
I'm 35. Back in the day, everyone owned an NES...but things were just simpler back then.
Look at the Homerun derby in Wii Sports. It tells you if you've swung too early or too late. If you are a "hardcore" gamer, you already know that. A new gamer, without that information would just get frustrated. Now, eventually they would find the sweetspot. Then casual gamers can then begin to compete with hardcore gamers and more fun, through competition, is had by all.
"Hardcore" gamers will own a Wii60 or PSWii because they want the hd gaming as well as games like LoZ:TP and MP3 and they will rent Madden on Wii and try it out but also get the bling bling 360 or PS3 version.
Only fanboys will criticize Nintendo.
Casual gamers will just pick up a Wii and have fun.
ConstyXIV @ Oct 3rd 2006 9:40AM
"I am guessing the Wii was born from the comment "What are we going to do with all these gamecube parts"
Flashback to 1981:
"What are we going to do with all these Radar Scope boards?"
"Miyamoto! Get up here and make a game for these Radar Scope boards!"
(designs Donkey Kong)
Shawn @ Oct 3rd 2006 9:50AM
Haha TRUTH was burnt by Lou D
Natiahs @ Oct 3rd 2006 9:56AM
Actually, Burnt Meatloaf, you're not pointing out the obvious. You're hinting at the oblivious. "The Wii can't do half of the things the other systems can"? Can you surf the net on Xbox 360? Can you play C64 / NES / SNES / N64 / GameCube / TurboGrafix 16 / Genesis games on PS3? What exactly are the features Wii can't do that the others can?
I own a 360 and like it quite a bit. Its functionality as a Media Center Extender sucks, but I've had a lot of fun with its games. I'm also looking foward to PS3, especially once HDMI 1.3 TVs and receivers hit the market next spring. But I'm most excited about Wii. I believe Nintendo will succeed in changing gaming forever with it. That is more exciting to me than megapixels and polygons.
JET
TRUTH @ Oct 3rd 2006 11:13AM
Im a big nintendo fan and I will buy a Wii. Bottom line! Nintendo's controller is goning to go out like their mini disc did. It seems neat at first, but after awile it gets old and thats when you will want your old style controller back.
For a new gamer or even a regular gamer trying to figure out the wii's motion sensing while holder two seperate controllers and pressing buttons will be harder than picking up a PS3 or 360 controller!
LOL @ Oct 3rd 2006 11:34AM
" are they anything new from a developer's perspective? It doesn't appear so"
WA- WA- WA- WA - WA
ALERT ALERT ALERT
IGNORANT NOOB ALERT
anything new?
let's see...
ATI GPU with support for
DIRECTX 9
shader model 3.0 technology
onboard FLASH storage
USB 2.0
built-in Wi-Fi
SD memory bay
and the wiimote
yes. just like a gamecube. ( LOL ASSRAPED)
Gustomucho @ Oct 3rd 2006 2:11PM
If one console can make me loose weight while I play I will pick it asap. I am tired of sitting on my ass all day playing games on every other system out there. Maybe I should have tried the Eye Toy for PS2 but it seemed half-finish.
I love playing tennis, I really look forward to take on my friends on Wii Sports.
The graphic for the Wii will be OK, not bad, not Great. I really don't care for photo-realistic games if the fun factor isn't there.
Truth is, if its fun people will buy it, with ok graphic and great gameplay they can't go wrong. I wouldn't even care if the graphic looked like the Nintendo64, they looked good enough.
Quick questions :
What game did you play for the longuest time ?
Why?
Because of graphics?
Didn't you play Coleco Vision/Atari/Vic20 and NES and enjoyed it without the FULL-HD ?
epobirs @ Oct 3rd 2006 3:09PM
#29
LOL, care to supply the slightest shred of evidence that there is a DX9 compliant (the correct word since Nintendo is hardly going to actually use the DX9 APIs rater than OGL in their SDK) GPU in that machine? Not a single screen shot or video to date displays anything that wasn't in the scope of the GC hardware, which is purely in DX7 compliant territory.
As for the rest:
Flash memory? Not a new chipset feature.
SD slot? Not a new chipset feature.
USB ports? Not a new chipset feature.
All of those are easily handled with a single off the shelf $2 controller chip that is far more practical than adding dedicated silicon to the existing CPU/GPU. Althugh the flash and SD slot wouldn't even need that. The GameCube already had support for its flash memory card slots. It isn't an arduous task to extend that to handle a fixed 512MB memory store and an SD port.
WiFi? Nope, not a new addition to the GC chipset. Just an entire additional chip. It would be insane from an engineering perspective to integrate that part into a CPU or GPU. Once more, this will just be an off the shelf item originally developed for the laptop market.
Wii-mote? Again, not a new chipset feature. You could add such a device to the PS2, Xbox, or GameCube easily. From the system's perspective it's just another stream of numbers. How it is put to use in the software is where it takes on interest. There is nothing there requiring new silicon in the console.
So, show one single public quote from an ATI employee stating without hesitation that the chip they supplied to Nintendo has major new features beyond what was in the ArtX Flipper unit. Nintendo, ATI, and IBM have all been extremely reticent in specifiying any genuinely new features in their combined chipset. The most likely reason for this is that there are no new features and Nintendo doesn't want this to be a point of focus instead of what the actual user experience delivers. The Emperor's new clothes are easily made invisible if they don't exist.
The Wii is now just weeks away from launch. THere is no purpose served from keeping it's feature set secret. If it contains a DX9 GPU this is something Nintendo should be proclaiming widely rather than refusing to detail. You don't keep things secret in marketing if they are worthy of boasting about. You do downplay such details if they can make you look bad against the competition, especially when you're trying to sell on entirely other factors.
epobirs @ Oct 3rd 2006 3:33PM
#30
That was long ago and standards were different.
Back when 'Return of the Jedi' was first in theaters, the Rebel fleet scene was astounding, especially if you had any understanding of the labor behind it. But I remember watching it in the mid-90s and thinking how horrible the optical print blurring around each of the ships was and how much better the same scene could now be rendered via CGI.
It's still a great accomplishment for its day and I greatly resent when acts as if he's doing us a great favor by letting us see the original theatrical release on DVD. But if a big studio tried to put out a movie that looked like that today, unless it was intended as parody, I'd completely reject it. There are far better, not to mention far less costly, ways to do that kind of visual now.
Even comparing CGI to CGI reflects changing standards. Way back when, the few minutes of CGI footage in the 'The Last Starfighter' was astounding. It took six months of rendering on a Cray using a PDP-11 as a front-end controller. Today, if you tried to offer real-time graphics that poor in a full priced game, you'd be laughed out of business. People would expect better from a mere XBLA game.
'The Last Starfighter' can still be enjoyable but the same wouldn't apply to someone producing new works with such poor visuals. A $1,000 PC and free ware could produce far better in a month of rendering. There is just no excuse for less, even from a shoestring indie production.
So, just because I loved my Atari 800 25 years ago doesn't mean I'm inclined to give equal consideration to a new game using the graphics of that era.
A big part of what people look for in exchange for their money is a visceral experience. Images and sounds that make the player pause in admiration is a big win. But is that necessarily the game you play the longest? The most visually impressive games that I'd be inclined to mention tend to have sharply defined endings. When you've reached the end of the story it's done. While plenty of less eyecatching games have kept me playing for far longer. But that doesn't mean either was a better value. Their value was just derived from different strengths.
Some people will be more strongly attracted to one than the other. If the Wii-mote isn't a big draw to them they may decide they can get the best of both worlrds from one of the more expensive machines. I suspect over time the Wii price will drop sharply as Nintendo recoups their initial costs and gets fiercely competitve on price and gameplay as a means to counter the competition visual capabilites.
Good strategy. It just remains to be seen how it works out in real life.
euan @ Oct 3rd 2006 6:07PM
For god sake the Wii's processor is RISC? Why would you be adding all these extra instructions to it. Remember, the 360, Cell and Wii processor are all related because they come from similar IBM designed architecture. The difference being the Wii is easier for people to program for and probably has the better compiler too. I do doubt whether people know what they are talking about.
Lou @ Oct 3rd 2006 6:19PM
@epobirs
Not that I'm the one that claimed Dx9 compatibility...however...
DX9 feature set and DX9 api are 2 differnt things. A chip can support all the features of DX9 but still be programmed using openGL. The GC and PS2(and 3) dev kits use openGL. Microsoft owns the DirectX api.
What happens is MS says we want to be able to do a number of features on a gpu and they write an api for it and hardware manufacturers(usually ATI first) have a suitable gpu. OpenGL can also use those hardware features but is a standard that moves slowly in picking them up.
Developers have gone on record in stating that the Wii can do better visuals than the XBOX, which was based on DX7+. It comes down to the api, openGL has lagged in features compared to DirectX. That may be why one developer has said that "some" things are still easier on the original Xbox, but overall giving Wii the edge.
You challenge people for proof though offer no counter-proof other than the challenge of proof. It gives you no more merit.
I sit hear reading the latest Nintendo Power where the reviewer of Madden for Wii states the developers said that it has twice the textures of the Gamecube version, more realistic lighting and shadows, runs at 60fps, and keeps the models at a higher polygon count even when they are far away from the camera. Page 49 of issue #209. Does that imply that they also upped the on-chip texture memory(a feature first found in the original Flipper and now applied to the 360's GPU in the amount of 10MB)? In an IGN interview, the developers even claimed that the textures challenge the 360's version of Madden '07 in alot of places. You can't do that with a simple overclocking.
On page 29, Monster 4x4:World Circuit is previewed with the statement that is runs in 60fps vs. the Xbox's 30. Does that mean the Wii is twice as powerful as the Xbox? I'm not that naive, but show me proof that the Wii is just a GC with an extra $10 worth of off-the-shelf chips as you claim.
@euan
The days of Risc vs. Cisc are gone. Any instruction set can be applied to an underlying cpu architecture. The GC's Gekko cpu had 37 extra SIMD instuction for vector operations. It also split the typical 64bit integer unit into 2 32bit ones to process twice as many integers at once.
Though Cell, Xenos and Broadway all have a PowerPC core(or 3), in Xenos and Cell - they are stripped down versions that require manual optimization (until compilers improve) the get maximum performance. Broadway is based on the Gekko which was an enhanced PPC cpu, not a watered down one (missing branch prediction or command sub-sets to be off-loaded to SPU's) to achieve a higher clockspeed for the fanboys to brag over.
Doom3 @ Oct 3rd 2006 7:50PM
LOL epobirs your logic is flawed... The CGI community has far suppased the gaming community and comparing them is simply invalid. The tech that "they" are using won't be in games unless we see more break thur in chip design(IE a hugh rise in polygon counts with out scafice). The Cell tried but failed other wise it would not have the RSX powering it(the Sli cards and Pure and render man type products are there standards). Your are trying to say that the current lame ass HD gaming thing auto maticly makes the Wii not worth every penny?
The Xbox360 is intresting but it is not very different power wise from video cards coming out with direct x 10. Yes they both use the same software but the gaming community will get laughed at for trying to say that these systems are next gen. When they are really just shader addition upgrades and ready for an unimpressive Hd out put yet no real ground has been cleared for huge resolution textures or massive polygon counts. Crysis is the only developer that can make a CGI or DCC pause. Hell The last shrek or Pixar film far surpases any thing the gaming industry can do. yes they are catching up but even MS and Sony only trumpit resolution as the main reason why they are next gen.
You are trying to say the standards have changed yet the only real "standard that nintendo is missing is HD graphics". If you take that away then the tech found in the HD systems make them over priced consoles. If you are trying to say polygon counts make them next gen you have to realize the jury is still out on that one as even MGS4 has polygons all over it. The reason for your missguided standard is normal mapping. Never have I seen a video game community so out of touch with the engine that runs the games. Maybe this is an effect of Sony drawing in the casual gamer. And no normal mapping is not a BUMP map... Bump maps don't fool the eye as well as a normal map... they make thing look shiny...LOL Xbox1 style.
Every one claims the next gen system will be so powerful yet the creators are still mysteriouly conservative with such a next generation arn't they? If you look at most character design you will see a heavy reliance on normal mapping... It's a great trick but it keeps you from realizeing certain maodels...
And god bless your standards comment... cus really the standars arn't high enough to justify there price yet.
If your going to complain complain about the passaphier that Hd really is... And to boot your paying too much for it. If 250 is too much to pay for a Wii then don't pay... Really If you can look at the games and still say wow this is so GC then don't buy it. Your not convincing any one that the spec beast of the xbox360 and PS3 are worth the price... and still say that what nintendo has done with the Wii is cheating it's customers.
Plus too when you Buy a Wii your are buying a platform not specs... But from one spec along the Wii crushes the xbox360 and the PS3... the controller... Thats why people are starting not to care as much about the expensive HD tv having HD game revoltuion...LOL
Aren't the specs supose to tell the user about the new things you can experence on the said game system? Look at the neo Geo... It let you have giant sprites on screen reatrded frames of animation and was truely a case of you can't do this on a Snes. LOL but they almost did with games like SShowdown. Now if you take the resolution away from the HD systems what do you have to get excited about? It's like paying for a Nvidia 7800 top of the line to play it on an old VGA with 800 by 600 resolution... you do realise graphics scale and you guys are only paying for the ability to run it at ...LOL 1080...LOL Those same cards run games at 1600 so before you say the Wii is a game cube take a look at what MS and Sony are really giving you for your money... If any thing those systems should be around 150 dollars cheaper... Why do you think they can even give price cuts on a system they are loosing money on? Yeah die shrinks... will you see that saving... hell no!
Doom3 @ Oct 4th 2006 1:29AM
It's funny that every one keeps saying we are paying for repackaged GC tech. I mean just with the ram upgrade you should expect a system priced at 250 but really it's only sub 200 once all of the extra stuff is taking out.
I like epobirs has been watching all of the channels which leak or educate tech guys about the new stuff in these chips. Really when you think about it more numbers is just silly. If you look at the desing chip LSI and the type of ram they is using then... then It's really simple to see your actualty getting a deal. Yes your getting that deal because of chip processing tech and new forms of sram... But to say that the Wii is a game cube is silly really... and it will only end up impressing people in the end becuse you have set the bar so low...LOL If you clearly look at the graphics you'll see that this stuff was not possible on the cube... really even if they over clocked it... I think really this is the Web news community getting mad at nintendo for not giving them one of the biggest draws for debate... Spec fanboys... Which really know nothing of chip design or effiecency.
I'll admit it's fun to know specs but really do you under stand how a 3core cpu can out do a Cell or why the frame buffer on the 360 is feed back into the system GPU? Some people have clues but once the home brew or indie guys get a hold of all systems we will truely know what each can do well.
Also too graphics APis are only good for cheap developers... because they really winners alway make their own tech using the tool that the console makers gave them.
To end this rant... If you would read the link you will see nintendo may be on to some thing. If it's always on and always updating who says it couldn't just get rid of old D/Loads to update them? This really does make subscription possible also. I'm not going to spell it out to you but if your a developer I'm sure you can spell money.
Plus too all of you are complaining about the wii's specs as if developers are complaining that there is simply not enough power there. I know alot of developers troll post boards but I see no argument that justifies the WII is a GC thing or why the Wii is so underpowered. I mean dang even I could make this thing look good. After the industry got their ingame models over 2500 polys every thing was solved. Now when we get models over 100,000 to 200,000 polys then I would rather call that next gen... With normal mapping that would just be a sin....
I mean all of this complaining yet you had nothing to play on your xbox360 till GOW... yet even it lacks the art every one wanted. The engine is cool though. I can't wait till we see the polygon counts really high though... When you see the models on Panzar.com in a game then you can say thats next gen... It's simple the tech isn't ready for true next gen right now so thats why we get the HD revolution speed bump... Hell I've ran my games in the 1200s not a big deal. Don't be mad at nintendo for not giving you graphic tech porn...LOL Go and buy a PS3 thats the only reason they made it...LOL plenty of blue and white papers on it and it's sorta new compiler.. all the tech porn you and read.
Some times I wonder if nintendo got up and made Reggie do a drunk man act and say some thing like wee's got all dez powersusresssss. I mean you caould always get 24 wii and Link them up together lol... Thats why the power consuption was lowered...LOL Please go and buy a Pure card why don't you...LOL
Author X @ Oct 4th 2006 10:32PM
"I wonder what would've happened if Sony had intruduced this controller. Probably the end of the world."
According to Nintendo fanboys, yes. According to Sony fanboys, it would be the second coming. Crying "fanboy support" at anyone with a detailed, disproportionately long response in favor of X seems hypocritical when you're in the middle of a detailed, disproportionately long response attacking X. Just because someone believes a console isn't part of a conspiracy to steal your money doesn't make them a fanboy, and just because someone likes Nintendo more than Sony doesn't automatically invalidate everything they say.
(Although, I guess Sony partly agrees with you, since it seems they waited until the remote was revealed to throw together their own accelerometer)
That said, I'm a big Nintendo fan, (as well as having a PS2 and PSP) and I don't care about graphics past a certain threshold, or processing power/dollar. Yes, I can plainly see that PS360's graphics are far, far better than the Wii's. I just don't care, because, hell, the Gamecube's graphics were GOOD ENOUGH for me.
Notice, I'm not saying "graphics don't matter" I'm saying "graphics don't matter TO ME." Obviously, they matter to quite a few of you, OBVIOUSLY, otherwise no-one would want a PS3 in the first place.
Now, if I were to ignore graphics after they get to current-gen level, then the processors in the PS360 have no advantage to me. The Wii's will run much more quietly and with less heat, but that was never really more than a minor annoyance anyway. Certainly not more important than the graphical advantage I've already dismissed.
Hmm... it sounds like I'm not making a convincing argument for the Wii's CPU or GPU, am I? Well... guess what... that's not why I'm buying a Wii. (that's right! As many times as you can shout I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CONTROLLER IF IT'S LESS POWERFUL; I can shout back I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE POWER IF I LIKE THE CONTROLLER!)
One statement that seems odd to me is that the Wii can't do half the things the PS360 can. Huh? Aside from propriatary things like XBox Live/Arcade, or (that is, things the Wii isn't doing because it just isn't or has its own equivalent, not because it can't), I don't understand this point at all.
The Wii can do all the stuff the PS3 or 360 can, just /not as well/. Hell, by comparison, if the Wii tried to run every game the PS360 could (ie if some kind of port were made), I bet you it would be able run everything, but /badly/. But I really don't see how you can argue the PS3 or 360 can do everything the Wii can. Sure, some of Ninty's 'revolutionary' features are already present or unimpressive, like the Virtual Console (XBox Live Arcade) or weather channel (it definately looks like neat to play around with, but I'm not going to try to pretend it adds any value to the console) but I do not see any way a 360 FPS could emulate the pointing mechanism of MP3: Corruption.
So, you see, while the PS360 platforms can run games, inarguably, better, I believe the Wii can do MORE. Sure, I may be paying more that I would for a gamecube for what is essentially a gamecube with a vastly new control scheme, and no start-up time, and downloadable content including emulated games, and new games that won't be made for the old GCN, and some extra bells and whistles to play around with (the channels) but... well... I just described to you some of the advantages it has over a gamecube that I'm willing to pay more for.
You see, my mind IS made up already. And no amount of gross micro-processor comparison will change it. Not because I'm ignorant or stupid as many comments here seem to assume, but simply because I have different priorities. IMO, the PS360/Wii argument boils down to more or better. The PS3 does games better than any of the three but the Wii does more. That's not to say the Wii is "bad" or the PS3 is "not much" no, I am sure that if there weren't PS360 to compare anyone would agree the Wii's graphics are certainly good enough to enjoy a game. Otherwise, hey, the current-gen systems would have failed. And I'm sure that if I had money and desire enough to buy a PS3 or a 360 I would find it hella fun, no argument there at all - just as I do the PS2 and Gamecube I already own, which don't feature motion-sensor technology or virtual consoles. But given the choice between "the same kinds of games but better" or "new kinds of games but of the same quality" I, like so many other supporters of the Wii, choose the latter, NO MATTER HOW MUCH BETTER 'but better' may be. Of course I don't expect everyone to, now THAT would be stupid and ignorant. It's a personal preference.
To paraphrase Dr. McNinja, have you ever met a girl whose mom gets on her case about her weight? It doesn't matter how atheletic she is, how good her grades are, or how politically and socially concsious she is, no matter how proud you'd think a mother would be, it doesn't make her mom think she's any less fat. That's all she cares about, the rest doesn't matter no matter how great it is.
I'm not even going to say what system or which side that is a metaphor for... it works just as well either way. it doesn't matter how great X or how much you rant about if all I care about is Y.
Sam @ Oct 5th 2006 6:37PM
I'm sorry to inform you all that Ben Hobbs has died today from a housefire that was caused by leaving his xbox on all day in 37C weather, WHAT WAS HE THINKING?! anyway everyone will remember our favorite xboxer, won't we?
LongshotX @ Oct 16th 2006 9:24PM
The Wii=DualCube
But the best part is all the Mario's we will get to play. Let's see we could potentially see: Mario American Styled Football and Mario Basketball, then Mario Boarders, Mario Space Wars, Mario Cop, Mario's Time Machine, Mario Lacrosse, Mario Texas Hold em' Up, Carboard Mario, Mario Prime, Mario Sims, Mario Flight, Mariolympics, Mario Man X, Mario: Italian Job, Mario vs. Sonic, Mario Tetris Edition, Mario RTS, PacMario, and maybe maybe in 15 years when HD takes hold Mario 1080p. Then Rock, Paper Mario, Mario Fantasy, Mario Presents: Peach Porn, Mario Hockey, Chutes & Mario, Mariopoly, Mario Combat, Covert Mario: Goomba Strike, Mario Canoe, Mario Scuba, Mario Grind, Mario Guitar, Mario Rush, Mario vs. Capcom, Mario Busters, Mario Boxing, Mario Fighter, Mario Uno, Mario Megamix, Mario 8 - 4000, Mario MotoCross, Mario GP, Mario ATV, Mario Nighttime, Mario Jazzercise, Mario Pocket, Grand Theft Drain Pipe, Mario Pimp, Mario Concerto, Mario Wiipeated, Mario Rap, Mario Cycling, Mario Gym, Mario Universe, Mario String Theory, Mario Light, Mario Sportscenter, Final Mario, Project Mario, Mario Stalkers, Mario Joystiq, Mario Surf, Mario Wave Runner, Mario 480i, Mario Canvas, Mario Puzzle, Mario Mix and Match, Mario CAD, Mario Engineering, Mario in Smoke that Pipe, Mario Killers, Mario Recycled, Metal Mario, Pulp Paper Mario, Mario Rape.